Here is a dialogue
from this post at Philadelphia
Abuse Trial Blog last night (after a guy sat in front of me where I pecked at my laptop and said, "You've got to not give a f--- what people think of you." I said, "You are right," hit the send button, and began this stream):
You know what, Ralph,
I have so much respect for you.
But:
After all that's been said in comments here, I'm surprised you would still resort to a press release from SNAP to get the survivors' side of a story. That's what mainstream reporters do, in the charade that is today's news coverage. Instead of going to a nonprofit spokesperson, why not take the time to find individual victims who have something to say. Most of us never get a voice. No matter how much SNAP claims to "give voice to victims," you never hear from anyone except the two or three people from SNAP in the news.
I'm just disappointed, Ralph, that you don't realize how much the corporate control of information, which you claim to be defying, is connected to nonprofits that claim to speak for a group of persons, the way SNAP claims to speak for pedophile priest survivors.
Someone is approving those press statements before they get released. SNAP press statements are edited and cleaned for public consumption... by someone.
I'm not saying call on me. I don't claim to speak for anyone.
But, Ralph, it's just too easy and, I hate to say it, kinda lazy, to go to SNAP and copy and paste one of their press statements to get the survivors' side of a story. SNAP has been using the same adjectives for years over and over, and a lot of us do not feel SNAP speaks for us.
I'm surprised you would not realize that, Ralph, since you are part of the non-corporate media world. SNAP is part of the problem, and they do not move the story forward with their statements. Most of the time their press releases are a collection of subjective adjectives that really don't say very much. SNAP rarely reflects the rage and frustration and sense of "justice interruptus" of the victims, especially those of us who have been systematically ejected from SNAP for being too vocal.
Please do a little more footwork, Ralph, and find someone who is not getting their statements cleared and edited for safety in advance when you want to get the survivors' side of a story.
Thanks
-Kay Ebeling
( http://cityofangels12.blogspot.com )
But:
After all that's been said in comments here, I'm surprised you would still resort to a press release from SNAP to get the survivors' side of a story. That's what mainstream reporters do, in the charade that is today's news coverage. Instead of going to a nonprofit spokesperson, why not take the time to find individual victims who have something to say. Most of us never get a voice. No matter how much SNAP claims to "give voice to victims," you never hear from anyone except the two or three people from SNAP in the news.
I'm just disappointed, Ralph, that you don't realize how much the corporate control of information, which you claim to be defying, is connected to nonprofits that claim to speak for a group of persons, the way SNAP claims to speak for pedophile priest survivors.
Someone is approving those press statements before they get released. SNAP press statements are edited and cleaned for public consumption... by someone.
I'm not saying call on me. I don't claim to speak for anyone.
But, Ralph, it's just too easy and, I hate to say it, kinda lazy, to go to SNAP and copy and paste one of their press statements to get the survivors' side of a story. SNAP has been using the same adjectives for years over and over, and a lot of us do not feel SNAP speaks for us.
I'm surprised you would not realize that, Ralph, since you are part of the non-corporate media world. SNAP is part of the problem, and they do not move the story forward with their statements. Most of the time their press releases are a collection of subjective adjectives that really don't say very much. SNAP rarely reflects the rage and frustration and sense of "justice interruptus" of the victims, especially those of us who have been systematically ejected from SNAP for being too vocal.
Please do a little more footwork, Ralph, and find someone who is not getting their statements cleared and edited for safety in advance when you want to get the survivors' side of a story.
Thanks
-Kay Ebeling
( http://cityofangels12.blogspot.com )
Ditto!
"Callous and
reckless" ad nauseum.
Someone decided about two years ago SNAP should keep using those two adjectives. Look it up. They've used those two words about a thousand times since 2010.
Someone decided about two years ago SNAP should keep using those two adjectives. Look it up. They've used those two words about a thousand times since 2010.
As a parishioner and
school parent, I can say that the "rigid Safe Environmental program"
WAS NOT instituted by Lynn, but by the Archdiocese. It was a mandate!
If he comes back, I am out of the parish and school! And I know that I'm not the only one. Unfortunately, his main supporters are the bigwigs/money people of the parish & school and no one wants to speak up for fear of a backlash -- especially if it could be directed at our children.
If he comes back, I am out of the parish and school! And I know that I'm not the only one. Unfortunately, his main supporters are the bigwigs/money people of the parish & school and no one wants to speak up for fear of a backlash -- especially if it could be directed at our children.
Thomasina, I agree
with you about "Safe Environmnent." It was and is a mandate of the
AOP. I'm a member of another church in Chester County, and a Volunteer, so I
have to keep up to date on all my clearances and education.
Msgr. Lynn will never be coming back to St. Joe's. The man, the priest, has lost everything. Do you understand what the loss of one's reputation and ability to continue in their chosen profession does to a person? He is serving his sentence now, has been serving it since he was on trial, and will serve it for the rest of his life.
Maybe you should leave your Parish and your School for other reasons, but not for the reason that, Oh my God!, Monsignor Lynn might come back! Run for the hills!!! Let's be serious now, he's not a threat to you or your children.
Msgr. Lynn will never be coming back to St. Joe's. The man, the priest, has lost everything. Do you understand what the loss of one's reputation and ability to continue in their chosen profession does to a person? He is serving his sentence now, has been serving it since he was on trial, and will serve it for the rest of his life.
Maybe you should leave your Parish and your School for other reasons, but not for the reason that, Oh my God!, Monsignor Lynn might come back! Run for the hills!!! Let's be serious now, he's not a threat to you or your children.
Who will speak for the
children and the direct link to health failures ,premature death and suicides
,murder from abuse by the clergy.
catholic cemeteries?,catholic hospitals?
catholic cemeteries?,catholic hospitals?
Archie writes re
Monsignor Lynn:
"The man, the priest, has lost everything. Do you understand what the loss of one's reputation and ability to continue in their chosen profession does to a person?"
Get real.
Lynn will never have to worry where his rent or food will come from, he will probably always have servants and drivers, access to cars, and luxurious vacations, plus a stipend that is higher than most people's Social Security check, and he won't have any real living expenses. He will never have to get up and commute and go to a real job where layoffs and outsourcing could make him homeless.
Priests are priests for life and even the ones known to have committed horrendous crimes live out their lives in luxury.
Don't kid yourself. The priests who serve a little time do not suffer. They are coddled 'til they die, and the Monsignor, now that he's taken the bullet for the cardinal, may kick back in a cell for a year, but he won't suffer.
Not anything like the victims suffer our whole lives.
"The man, the priest, has lost everything. Do you understand what the loss of one's reputation and ability to continue in their chosen profession does to a person?"
Get real.
Lynn will never have to worry where his rent or food will come from, he will probably always have servants and drivers, access to cars, and luxurious vacations, plus a stipend that is higher than most people's Social Security check, and he won't have any real living expenses. He will never have to get up and commute and go to a real job where layoffs and outsourcing could make him homeless.
Priests are priests for life and even the ones known to have committed horrendous crimes live out their lives in luxury.
Don't kid yourself. The priests who serve a little time do not suffer. They are coddled 'til they die, and the Monsignor, now that he's taken the bullet for the cardinal, may kick back in a cell for a year, but he won't suffer.
Not anything like the victims suffer our whole lives.
Kay, I am not
minimizing the victims and the horrors they have suffered! I pray for the
victims every day, and am thankful that I, and my two brothers and sister are
not among them!
I met Msgr. Lynn just once, but one of my best friends is best friends with him. And, he was a HUGE help to her family when her brother was sick, and eventally died. You never forget kindnesses to your family, and Msgr. Lynn was the King of Kindness to this particular family.
Death is so painful, sad, hard on everyone. Monsignor Lynn was an Angel. That particular family will always be grateful and never forget his tireless efforts, and friendship and love and tenderness.
I met Msgr. Lynn just once, but one of my best friends is best friends with him. And, he was a HUGE help to her family when her brother was sick, and eventally died. You never forget kindnesses to your family, and Msgr. Lynn was the King of Kindness to this particular family.
Death is so painful, sad, hard on everyone. Monsignor Lynn was an Angel. That particular family will always be grateful and never forget his tireless efforts, and friendship and love and tenderness.
I just popped awake
knowing I have to write this:
That statement above from SNAP is exactly the same as every statement they've made in every city about every priest for at least the last five years, almost to the word.
They say the priest is "reckless and callous" and that (INSERT CLERGYMAN NAME HERE) compromised the safety of children.
That's it, city after city, the story breaks, the reporter goes to SNAP and SNAP makes that same comment, the reporter dutifully copies it down and publishes it and ... that's the news, folks, and now let's see what the Kardashians have been up to.
I would never deign to comment on the cases in Philadelphia, I've never been to Philadelphia, and I'll bet Barbara Dorris, SNAP spokeswoman, never has either, but she will release that same generic statement about Philadelphia or Des Moines or Boulder or wherever, and reporters- even you, Ralph, dammit- will dutifully write down what she says and publish it as the survivors' point of view.
And the true and total story NEVER GETS TOLD!!!!!
Ralph, go to the plaintiff attorneys, get the names of victims in Philadelphia, interview them. No, they won't be picture perfect on camera, we are not corporate spokesmodels.
The real victims swear, lose our tempers, maybe even foam a little at the mouth. I've interviewed maybe a hundred victims over the past five years, and we are some of the craziest, most dysfunctional, messed up in weird ways persons you'd ever imagine to find on the planet.
That's the story. Not Barbara Blaine looking perfect on camera. The damaged dysfunctional victims whose quotes you will have to bleep out for all the raging expletives that explode out of us, that's the story. The permanent damage that cut to us down to our very nervous systems so we twitch, and make strange noises, and erupt like we have Turret's Syndrome.
That is the story. Not the corporate spokespersons with sanitized statements that can be applied to any city in the country and never really say a thing.
PLEASE stop quoting SNAP's press releases and get out there and find the real story.
If anyone can do it, it's you, Ralph, and I have a feeling I'm not the only person who wants to say this to you.
That statement above from SNAP is exactly the same as every statement they've made in every city about every priest for at least the last five years, almost to the word.
They say the priest is "reckless and callous" and that (INSERT CLERGYMAN NAME HERE) compromised the safety of children.
That's it, city after city, the story breaks, the reporter goes to SNAP and SNAP makes that same comment, the reporter dutifully copies it down and publishes it and ... that's the news, folks, and now let's see what the Kardashians have been up to.
I would never deign to comment on the cases in Philadelphia, I've never been to Philadelphia, and I'll bet Barbara Dorris, SNAP spokeswoman, never has either, but she will release that same generic statement about Philadelphia or Des Moines or Boulder or wherever, and reporters- even you, Ralph, dammit- will dutifully write down what she says and publish it as the survivors' point of view.
And the true and total story NEVER GETS TOLD!!!!!
Ralph, go to the plaintiff attorneys, get the names of victims in Philadelphia, interview them. No, they won't be picture perfect on camera, we are not corporate spokesmodels.
The real victims swear, lose our tempers, maybe even foam a little at the mouth. I've interviewed maybe a hundred victims over the past five years, and we are some of the craziest, most dysfunctional, messed up in weird ways persons you'd ever imagine to find on the planet.
That's the story. Not Barbara Blaine looking perfect on camera. The damaged dysfunctional victims whose quotes you will have to bleep out for all the raging expletives that explode out of us, that's the story. The permanent damage that cut to us down to our very nervous systems so we twitch, and make strange noises, and erupt like we have Turret's Syndrome.
That is the story. Not the corporate spokespersons with sanitized statements that can be applied to any city in the country and never really say a thing.
PLEASE stop quoting SNAP's press releases and get out there and find the real story.
If anyone can do it, it's you, Ralph, and I have a feeling I'm not the only person who wants to say this to you.
Kay popped awake,
Continued:
Weird CNS diseases that perplex our doctors. Strange boils and hives, protrusions on our bodies that make us look... strange. Scars and permanent damage from self-mutilation and botched suicide attempts. Extreme obesity or extreme skinniness from a life of eating disorders. The 65 year old man who blurts out he's had bleeding hemorrhoids since age five when the priest sodomized him.
Those are the stories that have never been published.
Wake up, Ralph, wake up.
Goodnight.
Weird CNS diseases that perplex our doctors. Strange boils and hives, protrusions on our bodies that make us look... strange. Scars and permanent damage from self-mutilation and botched suicide attempts. Extreme obesity or extreme skinniness from a life of eating disorders. The 65 year old man who blurts out he's had bleeding hemorrhoids since age five when the priest sodomized him.
Those are the stories that have never been published.
Wake up, Ralph, wake up.
Goodnight.
Mark Bukowski has a
police record? That's nothing compared to the levels of dysfunction you find
all over the country when you track down the pedophile priest victims.
Our screwed up lives are the main part of the story that has not yet been told. Yes, pedophile priest victims do not make good witnesses in the courtroom. Because of the deep visceral permanent unprecedented damages we live with.
That's the story!!!!!
Please write it. I need to be able to sleep.
Our screwed up lives are the main part of the story that has not yet been told. Yes, pedophile priest victims do not make good witnesses in the courtroom. Because of the deep visceral permanent unprecedented damages we live with.
That's the story!!!!!
Please write it. I need to be able to sleep.
One quick edit:
"That's the story. Not Barbara Blaine looking perfect on camera as she says, 'Kids need to be safe.'"
"That's the story. Not Barbara Blaine looking perfect on camera as she says, 'Kids need to be safe.'"
Well, we're really
letting it rip today, aren't we? Listen, I didn't get the prosecution's filings
until a little while ago (I will put them up this weekend) so I couldn't quote
all those defense documents and not look for something to shall we say balance
it. But we have a lot more to cover, so stay tuned.
Ralph
Ralph CiprianoJuly 21, 2012 7:23 AM
It was easy, I admit it, reaching for that SNAP bottle
that's always on the shelf, and drinking an all-too familiar concoction. I
blame it on the prosecutors, who were no-doubt hand-delivering their latest
filings to the Philadelphia Inquirer, and couldn't get to me in time for
deadline. But we will regroup!******************
Link to story from yesterday where these comments ran: http://www.priestabusetrial.com/2012/07/defense-team-says-monsignor-poses-no.html
******************
That's not the first time I got brave and posted what I feel
after convincing myself I had to stop caring what people think about me:
On July these comments came out of me at this post at
Philadelphia Abuse Trial Blog:
Criticism of SNAP by
survivors is not a case of hating the advocates at all. It's questioning the
legitimacy of the professional advocates, questioning who is really behind
them, and what is their real agenda.
Why do the same two people always show up, always have all the travel budget they need to appear and make a statement wherever this story is breaking, and the statement is then always published as "speaking for victims"?
Look at how widespread these crimes are and how many victims there are. Then look at the size and effectiveness of the only advocacy group that has survived.
Something does not add up. Where did the rest of the activists go? A lot of us got silenced, not by the church, but by SNAP itself.
It's very hard to explain this to reporters and friends of the movement, as they always see it as some kind of infighting or jealousy. That's not it. Many of us have been trying for years to get someone to realize:
Something stinks here.
Otherwise there would be much more activism and much more being accomplished for and by the thousands of victims of pedophile priests. Instead we get the same 2-3 people making the same press statement over and over again.
It does not add up. Something is not right here.
My theory: Only one group knew in 1985 that there were about a hundred thousand victims, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, and they knew something had to be created to control the victims and manage the outflow of information about the crimes. So they created something similar to "sweetheart unions" during the early 20th Century labor movement, groups that appeared to be advocating for the workers but were really working for the owners. They always showed up, always looked just right, and always stomped down the genuine demonstrators while appearing to be part of them.
So by the mid-1990s Linkup got wiped out and SNAP rose out of the ruins.
Something is not right here. Too many really active people got shot down and shut up when they were in the middle of creating something on their own after giving up on SNAP. Like me.
The victims of pedophile priests do not have genuine representation, there is no real network, and except for a few exceptions on a local level, there is no advocating organization.
Those of us who have seen what's going on from the inside Really Wish that some reporter with an investigative nose (like Ralph Cipriano?) would start looking into what some of us see as a counter-intelligence group that says it's one thing but is really another and the end result has been a nullification, so to speak, of any genuine victim advocacy.
Of course individuals like SarahTX and Judy Jones are sincere. The stink comes from the very top. Just ask one question. Who is the "we" referred to in Barbara Blaine's press statement above? When has SNAP ever done any kind of survey or asked the thousands of survivors what we want an advocacy group to do?
Never.
They operate in a cocoon out of reach or communication with the victims. They seem to have a preconceived agenda and be taking orders from someone somewhere. It's a very eerie experience for those of us who have had it, and we keep wondering when, oh when, will some reporter dive into this yet untold part of the clergy sex crime cover-up story.
I know, from my own experience, what happened to me while I was doing City of Angles blog. I wasn't harassed or stifled by the church, per se, I was silenced by SNAP.
What appears in SNAP press releases is not the same as what the victims at the grass roots level experience.
Sorry to have to write this again. I wish the story had not gone this way. I've written my whole experience with SNAP as best as I could describe it at City of Angels 2.
Suffice it to say, pedophile priest victims do not really have an advocacy group at all. We have a hologram that is run by someone, but not by the survivors.
Wonder who is really in charge ...
Why do the same two people always show up, always have all the travel budget they need to appear and make a statement wherever this story is breaking, and the statement is then always published as "speaking for victims"?
Look at how widespread these crimes are and how many victims there are. Then look at the size and effectiveness of the only advocacy group that has survived.
Something does not add up. Where did the rest of the activists go? A lot of us got silenced, not by the church, but by SNAP itself.
It's very hard to explain this to reporters and friends of the movement, as they always see it as some kind of infighting or jealousy. That's not it. Many of us have been trying for years to get someone to realize:
Something stinks here.
Otherwise there would be much more activism and much more being accomplished for and by the thousands of victims of pedophile priests. Instead we get the same 2-3 people making the same press statement over and over again.
It does not add up. Something is not right here.
My theory: Only one group knew in 1985 that there were about a hundred thousand victims, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, and they knew something had to be created to control the victims and manage the outflow of information about the crimes. So they created something similar to "sweetheart unions" during the early 20th Century labor movement, groups that appeared to be advocating for the workers but were really working for the owners. They always showed up, always looked just right, and always stomped down the genuine demonstrators while appearing to be part of them.
So by the mid-1990s Linkup got wiped out and SNAP rose out of the ruins.
Something is not right here. Too many really active people got shot down and shut up when they were in the middle of creating something on their own after giving up on SNAP. Like me.
The victims of pedophile priests do not have genuine representation, there is no real network, and except for a few exceptions on a local level, there is no advocating organization.
Those of us who have seen what's going on from the inside Really Wish that some reporter with an investigative nose (like Ralph Cipriano?) would start looking into what some of us see as a counter-intelligence group that says it's one thing but is really another and the end result has been a nullification, so to speak, of any genuine victim advocacy.
Of course individuals like SarahTX and Judy Jones are sincere. The stink comes from the very top. Just ask one question. Who is the "we" referred to in Barbara Blaine's press statement above? When has SNAP ever done any kind of survey or asked the thousands of survivors what we want an advocacy group to do?
Never.
They operate in a cocoon out of reach or communication with the victims. They seem to have a preconceived agenda and be taking orders from someone somewhere. It's a very eerie experience for those of us who have had it, and we keep wondering when, oh when, will some reporter dive into this yet untold part of the clergy sex crime cover-up story.
I know, from my own experience, what happened to me while I was doing City of Angles blog. I wasn't harassed or stifled by the church, per se, I was silenced by SNAP.
What appears in SNAP press releases is not the same as what the victims at the grass roots level experience.
Sorry to have to write this again. I wish the story had not gone this way. I've written my whole experience with SNAP as best as I could describe it at City of Angels 2.
Suffice it to say, pedophile priest victims do not really have an advocacy group at all. We have a hologram that is run by someone, but not by the survivors.
Wonder who is really in charge ...
City of Angels 2 is at
http://cityofangels2.blogspot.com and it all really happened.
Kay that was the truth
thanks. Thanks.
Kay, I've read through
many of your blogs in the past and, in fact, I tried hard to understand what
the claims are against SNAP. I think I was actually on your side in that for
awhile and I became disenchanted with SNAP because of things you said. But upon
reflection, it seemed like it was really just different viewpoints as to how to
go about getting things done. Some personality types are better with
group-think and some are better with individual action.
I think your City of Angels blogs are marvelous. I didn't see why City of Angels couldn't co-exist alongside SNAP's efforts and bishopaccountability's efforts and Catholics4Change's efforts, and One In Four in Ireland, etc. Did anyone really think that all victim/survivors' issues and hurts and endgoals could be lumped into one great big group where everyone gets represented exactly the same and every issue is equal?
I'm just trying to say that in this effort to stop this church abuse, the more the merrier. I have absolute respect for your investigative journalism and your City of Angels blog.
I think your City of Angels blogs are marvelous. I didn't see why City of Angels couldn't co-exist alongside SNAP's efforts and bishopaccountability's efforts and Catholics4Change's efforts, and One In Four in Ireland, etc. Did anyone really think that all victim/survivors' issues and hurts and endgoals could be lumped into one great big group where everyone gets represented exactly the same and every issue is equal?
I'm just trying to say that in this effort to stop this church abuse, the more the merrier. I have absolute respect for your investigative journalism and your City of Angels blog.
It has nothing to do
with personality types, Sarah.
Imagine what could have been accomplished if there had been a genuine network from the start. Over the last twenty years, there have been way too many survivors who tried to do things and were shut out.
As a result, no bishop has been prosecuted and most of the public still think there were only a handful of priests committing minor crimes.
Some of this marginalizing and stirring from within was being documented at the old SNAP message board around 2006. Then SNAP deactivated the board.
Consider the Hague hoopla last year. There was a group in Germany working in Spring of 2011 on contacting The Hague to prosecute the Pope. Then in the fall of 2011, SNAP did its own version of contacting The Hague prosecutors' office, and, well, what ever happened to that? Meanwhile the project in Germany got swallowed up in the SNAP media blitz.
Too many survivors got discouraged by SNAP's being unresponsive and noninclusive, and just quit. So those 2-3 persons who run SNAP guaranteed that the "movement" fizzled and was never more than the bare minimum it could be.
There are a few sturdy souls who were able to keep on going, like the SNAP group in Northern California, who, from what I've been told, keep going in spite of the national SNAP office.
A network is supposed to involve many, share resources, help people find each other... network. SNAP does the opposite, but the public only sees press releases and a website.
Think for a minute who the bad guys are here, before you think what I'm saying is not possible.
Imagine what could have been accomplished if there had been a genuine network from the start. Over the last twenty years, there have been way too many survivors who tried to do things and were shut out.
As a result, no bishop has been prosecuted and most of the public still think there were only a handful of priests committing minor crimes.
Some of this marginalizing and stirring from within was being documented at the old SNAP message board around 2006. Then SNAP deactivated the board.
Consider the Hague hoopla last year. There was a group in Germany working in Spring of 2011 on contacting The Hague to prosecute the Pope. Then in the fall of 2011, SNAP did its own version of contacting The Hague prosecutors' office, and, well, what ever happened to that? Meanwhile the project in Germany got swallowed up in the SNAP media blitz.
Too many survivors got discouraged by SNAP's being unresponsive and noninclusive, and just quit. So those 2-3 persons who run SNAP guaranteed that the "movement" fizzled and was never more than the bare minimum it could be.
There are a few sturdy souls who were able to keep on going, like the SNAP group in Northern California, who, from what I've been told, keep going in spite of the national SNAP office.
A network is supposed to involve many, share resources, help people find each other... network. SNAP does the opposite, but the public only sees press releases and a website.
Think for a minute who the bad guys are here, before you think what I'm saying is not possible.
At the same time they
are silencing the more vocal survivors, they are releasing press statements
that say, "We give voice to victims."
Who does that?
Who does that?
PS, Sarah, thank you
for your compliments about the work I did at City of Angels Blog.
I needed a network and shared resources to continue to do it, and got the opposite. The support was never there.
Never.
I needed a network and shared resources to continue to do it, and got the opposite. The support was never there.
Never.
They fly in wherever
the story is breaking, take a position front and center for media and new
survivors coming forward, then fly out taking all the contact information with
them, leaving whoever originally broke the story at a local level in the dark,
out of the loop.
The end result is damage control and as little of each story gets out as possible.
Who would do that?
The end result is damage control and as little of each story gets out as possible.
Who would do that?
Sometimes the readers
write a better blog than the writer.
Entire July 5 post where these comments appeared is is here:
http://www.priestabusetrial.com/2012/07/judge-denies-house-arrest-for-monsignor.html
