(I'm posting this fast transcript I produced fast while the UN hearing today was taking place. Unfortunately, I missed the Vatican's opening statement as links sent out did not work for me. A friend in Australia sent a link that worked. So between a freelance job I was doing about Tinker Bell for a press kit of The Pirate Fairy to be released 2014, City of Angels Winging It Transcripts provides these fast notes on the UN Hearing on the Rights of the Child that took place today. M is Moderator. Apologies for typos, no time to fix them)
Moral authority. Responsibility
Moral authority. Responsibility
Article 4 of
convention of rights of child establishes legal responsibility of parties to
adopt all measures to ensure rights respected.
Committee has
tried to shed light on number five re implementation.
Need to review
domestic legislation.
Ought to be a
revision
Question of
terminology used
Legitimate and
illegitimate children and how viewed in canon law.
Information and
training to what extent provided in Catholic schools?
(Shoot, they
are not talking about pedophile priests at all.)
Child as a
rights holder
Has been said
by Holy See rights of child to be seen within context of family. “Obviously in order to be a child you don't just
have a family.”
Children have
rights over and beyond this, they are rights holders independently over the family.”
According to Holy See sexual abuse
is a parental obligation re their children.
I would like to emphasize the Holy See defining specific criteria to
evaluate and put in place the best interest of the child.
How do you
intend to regulate this question of the best interest of the child.
Mr. Cardona
above quote.
Moderator asks
the rest of the members to be brief, please.
It's hour 1.25
in and I've heard almost nothing about pedophile priests.
“This room has
never been packed as it is today, presence of international media.
Shows important
role played by Holy See in protecting children’s rights. And the role of this committee to ensure implementation.
Raise two
issues, I want to add in this context that views of the child are not confined
to judicial and administrative proceedings.
It pertains to all matters affecting children and states have obligation
to assure exercise of this right.
Question whether
the Holy See in promoting this right for children in catholic institutions around
the world.
Now Corporal
punishment. . .
FINALLY a question
of pedophilia, which prevents children from developing properly and it affects
them throughout their lives. A child
subjected to pedophilia loses their connection with religion. Causes psychological and physical pain. Does the Holy See believe that pedophilia is something
that can be successfully addressed and overcome? Can there be a network of priests to provide psychological
counseling to priests. Steps that could
be taken at international level to address this problem. To what extent will children continue to be
affected if covered up. Children have
right to overcome pain from these abuses.
Is the abuser going to be held fully accountable? In turn, what about the psychological
disturbances affecting the abusers themselves.
=Miss Parsi
Miss Winter:
Question is a
legal one.
Monsieur G last speaker from committee in this round:
(So far I
think 2 have mentioned sex abuse, maybe 3, not with much force.)
Welcome delegation
of Holy See, thank for opening remarks
(which I missed
as links did not work)
Under convention
children benefit because it has been ratified by the Holy See. We've seen that children are not consulted,
not asked to provide their views and opinions.
(my head goes in my hand) I want
to ask about children’s status as beneficiaries of the convention- individual communications=
*****
BACK FROM BREAK:
Senor T (VATICAN):
I will try to
answer some questions immediately and Monsignor (?) will answer some and then
continue.
One
substantive issue is Holy See has jurisdiction beyond Vatican city state, a
free voluntary kind of jurisdiction, not like a state with penal laws or other
mandatory provisions.
So the Holy
See is trying to facilitate the family of believers to be responsive and to
carry out the measures necessary for protection and well being of children.
Talk of new
commission established by Pope Francis, it's a separate mechanism. Where complaints can be sent for example.
The priests
are educated to understand the implications also of the convention of the
rights of the child, but most important point to keep in mind is priests are
not functionaries of Vatican, they are citizens of own state and fall under
jurisdiction of own country.
Monsieur ? is
citizen of Vatican city state so procedures are under way for him to be judged
according to new laws, case is still open and in process and will be judged
with severity that crimes might demand.
Regarding the
reservations that Holy See placed at time of ratification of convention, there
is a study underway in view of whether to maintain these reservations and when
process completed committee will be informed.
Also question
has been raised about Koranic and Catholic schools, I think there is a
misunderstanding or a substantive difference.
Catholic schools follow a program of teaching that state approves. Second is sixty percent of children in
Catholic school are not Catholic, it's a service to society, re child’s future
role in society.
There is an
added component in this observation that states have a responsibility to
prevent incitement to hatred and divisiveness in society. So if a parochial
school teaches hate, I think there is a responsibility according to
international to prevent this.
FEMALE: Excuse
me. [DIRECTION]
Have a
follow-up question from a reporter.
WOMAN: You're going through the questions rather
quickly. You said about the commission,
one of the functions it will have, receiving complaints and be
independent. We also ask the composition
of that commission and about civil society that has become more mobilized, and
that has representatives whose rights have been abused by some of these
clerics, will they be included in this commission?
The nuncio who
will be punished, will he be handed over to the justice systems of
countries? Under which law will he be
sanctioned.
ANSWER:
Well clearly the nuncio will be judged under the law of the Vatican city state, he falls under that jurisdiction as he's a diplomat.
Well clearly the nuncio will be judged under the law of the Vatican city state, he falls under that jurisdiction as he's a diplomat.
QUESTION: Could I also know what sanctions could be
handed down to him? Are they along same
lines as justice systems for those countries.
A: The trial is underway, we'll have to see how
matters evolve before a decision as to what crime was committed. Then the sentences and the punishments will
be handed down. I don't think it's a good idea to omment further because
proceedings underway. Commission is
being established at the moment so names have not yet been published. As soon as they names are publicly known then
we will all know them.
Follow-up
question:
Q: Very briefly, thank you very much. To Monsignor as to role of the state to
control religious teachings. And to try
and prevent the preaching of principles that run counter to universal
principles, I am happy to hear you- I'm surprised to see you say state has
right to step in, as it's not what I see on page 9 of your report sub-paragraph
K when it comes to rights of children- education. Free choice of school and parents as to
education of children.
It says the
curricula . . . ( not about pedophile priests, about rights of child to choose
their religion and not be proseletized, okay. . . )
Runs counter
that what we see in the Holy See report, where it's spelled out that the state
does not have right to intervene.
A: In reply to that I would say parental right
has primacy. Parents have the right to bring up, educate children, and transmit
their beliefs, religious or otherwise. There’s no doubt the state has role to play
within that. That role is to prevent
schools becoming an instrument of incitement to hatred. . . parental rights are
the priority, in some way it's enshrined that way within the Convention, I see
no contradiction between the report and what I have said myself here. Priorities must have a hierarchy. If there are social problems within a family
the state does intervene.
VATICAN ANSWER
: About statistics. There are some
available in Italian published in annual report of Holy See beginning from
2005. In year 2012 six hundred twelve
new cases begun and of these 465- ?? what cases- 612 of sexual abuse. And of these 465 more serious. And of these 612, 418 are abuses of
minors. So for every year since 2006 statistics
are available and they are published.
And one final comment, like most states, also the Holy See is revising
its language regarding children born out of wedlock to avoid any
discrimination.
And finally
children are able to express themselves even outside context of family. For example in Catholic tradition, children
receive sacraments at their own choice, independent of the family.
But on the
first point regarding the jurisdiction of the Holy See and the Universal
Catholic Church, Bishop Charles is going to clarify from the canonical point of
view the position of the Holy See.
BISHOP: Concerns have been expressed about the policy
of Holy See as the central government of the Roman Catholic Church, expressed
in terms of jurisdiction as Tomaso explained.
IT is very
important from outset to state that this jurisdiction does not substitute or
override the states. So it's a spiritual
jurisdiction and when the local churches are faced with a report of sexual
abuse of a minor by a member of the clergy, they have to
AT THIS POINT JUST
AS THEY STARTED TO ADDRESS PEDOPHILE PRIESTS, SOMETHING NASTY CAME IN TO MY
COMPUTER AND CRASHED IT, PICKING UP 15 MINS or SO LATER THAT IT TOOK TO RESTART
AS WINDOWS HAD TO RECONFIGURE
Go figure
Our guideline
is to follow domestic law.
Q: With regard to same issue, I had mentioned I wondered
if guidelines shouldn't contain more information. Say cases should le be reported. Second point is re victim-
B: Has to be empowerment of community, and
derives from education. A guideline from
2011 is to make
Policy
No protection
of young people without education.
certainly I think every local church and diocese has a moral duty to instruct people who come with disclosures about all their rights. That is a moral duty which the Holy See has to promote that people need to be educated about their rights and how to exercise them.
certainly I think every local church and diocese has a moral duty to instruct people who come with disclosures about all their rights. That is a moral duty which the Holy See has to promote that people need to be educated about their rights and how to exercise them.
M: Data has
been raised but not comprehensibly. You
say providing data is up to the states but as high authority of Catholic Church
important you do not wash your hands.
Giving out
data would help clarify the facts, prosecute, and prevent…
Ask for your information
on all cases gathered by the Holy See and CDF since 2001 and other data already
asked for.
Why not do it,
even if you do not regard it as an obligation- providing data.
On allocation
of resources for promoting the protocol internationally.
COMMISSION ASKS:
When you know of pornography of children by clergy, have you taken interest of
child into account when deciding how to proceed?
To prevention,
Your answer is not very specific. In
view of committee best way to prevent offenses is to reveal old ones and
removing offender. Openness instead of
sweeping under carpet.
(BISHOP NODS AGREEMENT)
When you talk about
your own laws to sanction behavior, what about transparency in process when you
do so. It seems to date your practices
are not transparent and that victims do not take part. What are you going to do in line with this? And providing data as I've mentioned
before?
The new Commission
you say is a complaints mechanism for children.
Confirm that children can complain about offenses re Protocol.
Re Sale of Children,
we have the Magdalene Laundries which have not been mentioned except in a different
context from the protocol.
In these
laundries, residential for-profit operated 1922 to 96 by nuns, babies taken
away from mothers. Up to two thousand children
illegally exported to adoptive parents mainly to wealthy families in United
States. We ask for more information and
data on this and did not get it in your written replies. We’d like to know the number of babies taken
away and arrangements made to reunite mothers with children.
And all information
as to whereabouts of these children and what have done to hold perpetrators responsible.
Spanish Babies
stolen from families and sold for adoption.
Were trafficked by a network of doctors nurses priests and nuns up to
the early nineties. Mothers told babies
died in birth, then babies sold to “more appropriate parents” parents did not
know baby stolen.
You say Holy See
encourages investigation by Spanish authorities. What does that mean in practical terms? How do you assure crimes won’t be committed
again.
Assistance to
child victims:
You say you've
not had occasion to cooperate, why do you not take the initiative yourself?
Question on
impunity, priests and clerics have received
And obligation
of silence still being enforced on victims, Holy See has in several cases
refused to cooperate with authorities.
Has this changed
now if not what do you intend to do?
To
extradition, Holy See does not seek for purposes of prosecution.
We also have questions
from other members.
Mr.
C: Very quickly, I want to focus
on prevention measures. You've said Holy
See has taken steps to ensure priests et al are aware of provisions of
protocol
How does that occur? What steps have been taken to assure this information
reaches religious orders that run orphanages?
What training is offered re rights of child. . . . re sale of children, adoption of children.
. .
GIVE THE FLOOR
TO MISS O:
Thank you,
Madame Chair. I’d like to highlight the similarities
between two phenomena that have been referred to and how these relate to sale
of children and optional protocol.
There are similarities
and I would like to highlight the question that have already been asked. . .
Do you have information
on the prevalence of incidents involving sale of children, particularly those
linked to sexual abuse perpetrated by the clergy. I mention the case in the Dominican
Republic. Members of clergy involved in
sexual abuse were also found to have child pornography in their possession, the
children abused were also photographed as part of those offenses.
What type of relationship
is there between these two phenomena?
MISS H:
Coming back to
chair’s question, re Irish and Spanish, same applies in Canada and Australia,
the church had a strong standpoint re family status of these girls giving
birth.
Those children
are more vulnerable to exploitation by sale and many forms.
Question re family
form as reality is today children facing different family situations, low
income, divorce.
Question is
are you supporting in any way the families and children to curb these situations
instead of being judgmental.
All these perfect
families have really never existed. But this
is another discussion.
On the other
hand related to domestic violence makes children more vulnerable.
In March 2013 when
UN Commission on status of women raised these questions, the Holy See had a
strong standpoint opposing the text of the final report re domestic violence
issues. What is your position re these
issues.
One more
before lunch break:
MISS ?:
Mine is a very
quick question re children in orphanage in Spain.
Q: Re definitely of crimes in protocol. Has Vatican changed its laws regarding those
two protocols?
MODERATOR: Does the law which now deals with sale of children-
is it in canon law? That will be all for
this round. We'll have questions on OPEC
after lunch-
Lunch BREAK
*****
(During which I
go to work on my paid job, transcribing tonight an interview for Disney about Tinker Bell.)
BACK FROM LUNCH BREAK
M: We are
ready to resume with the Holy See asking questions on the protocol. Since I'm also the reporter for the OPEC
I'll ask the questions.
We welcome the
criminalization of recruitment and exploitation of children as a war crime, but
why not all the way up to age eighteen?
I know Miss
Winter would like to ask a question under the OPEC. If any others please ask.
Q: My question is international assistance and
cooperation for countries where you're working.
Is there a possibility to be assistance to other countries? Is the Holy See willing to assist the
mobilized child soldiers and so on?
ANOTHER
QUESTION: Thank you very much. In countries where armed conflicts exist,
does the Catholic Church host child soldiers escaping from the conflict
area? If yes, how are you dealing with
the child soldiers in terms of rehab and so on.
SR. T: (FOR VATICAN) Thank you. We start with the last question which relates
to child soldiers and their rehabilitation.
This is done by the local churches.
For example Uganda- . . . rehab consists of re-introducing them to
normal life . . . The question of criminalization.
Q:
[OVERLAPPING] is Uganda an example of what you do all over the world?
A: It's the local churches that are encouraged
to take initiative because the situation is better known locally. Uganda, Mozambique, even in Congo. The problem is better addressed where it
starts. It starts locally and we feel the possibility of finding family or
relatives is much greater.
VATICAN
CONT’D:
There were
questions regarding the cooperation of Holy See with civil authorities
regarding crimes against children especially sexual abuse. The Holy See cooperates with states, for
example recently in Australia. But
communication has to come through the proper challenges. The embassy to Holy See can present
documentation or information and the Holy See, as far as possible and it's in a
position to do it, is willing to cooperate.
Earlier there
was a question about the third protocol to the convention on the rights of the
child. So far the Holy See has not taken
a position and it's studying the protocol and looking at eventual consequences for the Vatican city state and its role in the international context, after the
study is over, the position will be taken.
Again on the
concern for the family, it might be of interest to know that children within
the context of the family are going to be dealt with in a very specific way in
October, when there will be an international synod of bishops from around the
world to deal specifically with the family.
Pope Francis has convened a meeting of cardinals around the twentieth of
February about the needs of children within the family.
Q: Does that mean you can’t say anything at this stage about the questioned Miss H raised about accepting different forms.
A: I'm coming to that.
ANOTHER
QUESTION:
You said that
if the country concerned makes a request between embassies, that the priests concerned-
do you have some kind of extradition treaty with these countries. And what kind of support to you give to the
country concerned, if they would like to take steps in terms of prosecution?
Is there
support given by you in terms of collection of evidence and the whole process
of prosecution or do you entirely leave it to law enforcement in that country?
A: It will be mostly the responsibility of the
local authorities re citizens that have committed crimes against children. It is the position of the Holy See to say
that cooperation is a moral and legal obligation.
Q: You said
earlier that you would provide information if you're asked to if it's done
through right chaneels.
A: Yes whatever is available obviously. About the discrimination of children from
different types of families, the priority is the interest of the child and
protection of the child, independent of the context. Because we believe that the interest of the
child should take precedent.
On the
adoption issue . . . different Catholic
institutions around world follow state law.
Q: With respect to adoption, my colleague is
asking about the baby boxes. In many
countries, churches are operating these medieval tradition that babies can be
abandoned anonymously. Does this serve
the best interest of the child? Do you
have an opinion as the Holy See on this program?
A: (VATICAN) I
must say that I'm not very informed about this topic, but I would say that the
problem of children being abandoned creates a response of immediate necessity
to the survival of the child and the protection of the child. Institutions take this responsibility
independent of policy.
Q: There are different ways also to support
mothers that get a child instead of having to abandon the child?
A: If I may,
madam chairman, I agree with you. I know
of one case personally in New York City where there is a house developed for
mothers who don't want to give up their child
(What is this 1952? It's awful that other parts of the world are still stigmatizing unmarried women who get pregnant.)
Q: Miss V: Just to add to what you were saying, is there
some kind of thought given to prevention of this, because one of the reasons
these children are abandoned are due to the fact that they're pregnant with no
access to reproductive health services . . . look at access to women’s health
services. . .
A: (VATICAN)
Well the position of the Holy See is that priority should be given to
life and therefore any effort to help these women independent of their marriage
condition to bring their child to birth if they want is to help them. And yes
there is an effort in different countries to educate and assist on this aspect.
There was also
another question on the responsibility for children in the Holy See, actually
there are different pontifical councils or departments in the government of the
church with children. Pontifical council
on family is promoting issues we've just talked about, council on migration
concerned with movement of minors across borders, without family relations.
Another
department is health. Catholic
education. These are different segments of concern regarding children from the
perspective of their specific mandate.
M: This is something we see with all state
parties, they have different sectors that deal with different parts of the
convention, we often lack oversight by one specific body. What body has that responsibility for the CRC
and the Holy See?
A: For the implementation of the CRC and its
protocols, the secretariat of state is primarily responsible. And then allocates responsibility for
different segments of this implementation to different departments. This is a good device that we should take
home, that one form of coordination may be developed. We can advise our government quotation marks,
like the new commission can take on more responsibility for protection of
children.
M: That Commission or body could also have a
monitoring function to follow-up regularly.
A: Yes, thank you that's good advice.
Q: I’d simply like to clarify one
point, you can’t comply with the functions of that commission. The commission being set up by the pope is to
have an operational space to allow him to deal with issues of sexual abuse and
other issues. We can acknowledge that
several pontifical councils do things.
How will they be coordinated so there’s no overlap of activities? I think it would be useful to have a body
help with this.
A: Right now there is a coordination of the
different departments depending on type of activity involved, done according to
the curia, the government of the Holy See by the secretariat of state.
Re the role of
civil society and how its contributed to the preparation of the response for
the Holy See, some Catholic NGOs have been consulted, that are part of catholic
tradition and deal with children.
As well some
of these NGOs share and highlight good practices that they have experienced
over the years and can be useful to share with rest of society. We have also used their knowledge and up to
date information.
M: Coming back to Mr. Gusto’s question, have
children been involved in any of these organizations?
A: Children have not been consulted but
indirectly through organizations in touch with them.
Another
question was re specific education of priests about work with children. Usually there is an effort, and articulated
decision, to train special people for medicine, and other disciplines. So they can take responsibility for
institutions that deal with children.
And this is done normally in a kind of systematic way. And the benefit obviously is to give ever
more professional assistance and care for the children that come under the
responsibility of church institutions.
Q: Mr. C:
I would like to thank you. About
pedagogical information and health information, I was referring to training in
terms of rights and in respecting the rights and content of the
convention. Not how to teach health
matters, but matters linked to identity and expression. Do you have a significant NGO for guidelines,
you must not be alone with a child with the door closed.
To ensure that
rights are respected.
A: To prevent cases of abuse of minors is a real
immediate concern and there have been some measures taken in this direction that
you mention. Like for example, before
entrusting work with children to a church person, be it a lay person or a
cleric, there is some examination of this person, certain objective criteria
have been put in place, to know exactly the background and the attitude of this
person.
And this is
done systematical now in several countries, at least in the United States it's
been implemented and other countries as well.
Q: Are you also training those working with
children to recognize child abuse and neglect?
How are you training your staff?
Q: I just want to- one question
outstanding. How many churches in the
world have received that and organized plans.
These activities what form do they take?
Q: I'm speaking about training and I have a
special question? What part is to
investigate with victims, to ask victims to come forward? Do you have specialists trained to deal with
children as victims and witnesses?
BISHOP: Okay I think that these concerns are very
important we're very important for these questions. With the guidelines, May 2011, CDF issued
circular letter to all conferences of bishops around world asking them to start
working on guidelines, because the response has to be on the local level. The closing date was February 2012. I have to say the response was not so
punctual but I'm pleased to report that by autumn 2012 90 percent had responded
by presenting guidelines.
(Transcriber: I HAVE AN
INTERRUPTION- lose about 2 minute)
And so this is
an essential element of every training program.
I would say that this concern, the values of the convention become an
integral part of training for future priests is well taken. I think that future priests should also know
that there are international concerns and that there are values that are
international and inter-religious our supra religious that need to be part of
the program on the diocese level. Key
word is education of future agents. The
initiative in the United States that Tomaso referred to are not just for
priests on the parish level but every person concerned with pastoral care. It is a very important step forward which
needs to be promoted by the Holy See in its role as the government body of the
Catholic Church worldwide.
As you said
the Vatican city state is a small concern but there are children there. I know
that questions of screening are also important on the tiny territory of Vatican
city state. We are on the same page with
the committee when it concerns the screening, profiling, and education and
training of personnel.
M: This sounds very good but what about priests
who have already been found guilty of sex abuse? Have they been removed from their
positions? Moving them from parish to
parish seemed to be quite common before.
A? Part of
prevention is to take care of offenders to prevent re-
Rehab but also
not putting minors at risk. That is a
paramount concern.
The question
of offe3nder mobility is of great concern.
The CDF states that it is a no-go to move people from one diocese to
another. There is an obligation to advise another diocese when a priest moves
of any concerns.
There is a
canonical obligation to explain why transfer being made. That is policy that has to be followed.
The
unfortunate incidents when policy is not followed make a strong case that the
policy needs to be not only adopted but also enforced.
Q: This is only for priests is it, or also for
religious orders? Are there instructions
for the orders?
BISHOP: The circular letter is addressed to the
conferences of bishops. There is a specific section that says religious orders
are Strongly Invited (this is the Pope inviting) says that orders have to
cooperate and coordinate response so there is a uniform response.
Guidelines
have to be adapted to local needs.
But has to be
a uniform approach to certain problems on a unique territory. That's why addressed to conferences, they unite
all bishops. They issue guidelines then
it's the local bishops and congregations of religious that have to implement
the guidelines on the ground.
Q: (MISS WINTER)
Child abuse is not only done by people in the church. Usually reaction is person guilty will never
be with children again. I think that similar
provision can be taken even for those who have been violating children in the
past. This is not the problem of the
committee, but is problem of church.
For committee,
is there possibility for the Holy See to say, a child molester will never have
a chance to interact with children anymore.
In Austria this was done. They were sent places where there are no
children. There are places where there
are no children.
M: I think linked to this is also the issue of
prosecuting the abusers within your own system.
One of the punishments would be to dismiss the priests. They should not then be able to perform as
priests any other place either. Do you
do that?
HOLY SEE: BISHOP: I would quote a very important phrase
by John Paul Second on 23rd April 2002, to Cardinals of United
States. That meeting in the Vatican and
he said these words. No place for a
priest or anyone who would harm the young.
This has become a very important policy statement.
It's not only
looking towards what they've done but what are they going to do in the
community from not on.
So if domestic
law is not applied- because we have situations where police are informed, but
don't think we have a good case or because of SOL- church is left with concern
and has moral responsibility. I think
that these concerns are very legitimate, something the CDF always insists, it
has become a mantra. That every decision
has to avoid any risk to minors.
Now this is
very difficult to avoid risks, because there is no situation that is zero
risk. But that would help.
The approach
has to be multi-disciplinary and also a synergy of concerns, NGOS church civil
society- that ensures safety of minors not only proposing a culture that is moral-
But also
reducing the risk of offenders re-offending.
Something that we have to work on absolutely.
M: It's not
easy to understand what specifically you do to prevent these priests from
re-committing? Do you remove them from
priesthood?
Holy See: Most of the priests who have been convicted
of crimes against children have been dismissed from the priesthood. There was also another point raised about the
training concerning human rights, for example.
. . . (gives us a little lecture about human rights) (wish I could fast
forward.)
And to answer
Miss Winter’s question on specialized persons sensitized to deal with child
victims of abuse, it's a process. There
is a an awareness this needs to be done, in some places more advanced than
others, but process is there.
Q: What happens to the child victim of
abuse? Is there compensation, efforts to
support rehab? Is there responsibilities
borne in terms of helping child who has been victimized to retain normalcy, or
is that left to the authorities.
Second,
because of the sexual abuse- by anyone not just priests, schools- is there an
effort to provide protective education to children to prevent abuse.
Thirdly is
there a help line or complaints mechanism in these places where children can
report at early stages? Is this something you have concerned.
BISHOP:? There has been extensive questions on the
training of children who are in contact with children but do children know
about the convention and that they have rights?
Pastoral care
of victims, the response is going to be pastoral care on the local ground. What sort of care is there for victims.
Re award of
damages, we promote personal responsibility, the person causing the damage has
duty to compensate for cost. Domestic
law should be followed when it comes to award of damages and personal
liability.
There are also
levels where the community can be proactive.
Unfortunately
trauma happens in a short term but effects and healing is long term. Preventive education is priority.
The children
not only have a say, have to be proactive in defending their freedom.
We have a
term, concerns caused by grooming.
These are
concerns that are very difficult to legislate.
And are really a result of education about awareness of patterns of
behavior that may be leading to abuse.
And so the education of minors should also teach them to notice patterns
that are grooming them to abuse.
Lowering their defenses, like secrecy, special friendships, gifts. This is where I think your third concern, are
we acting at the right stage where trauma can be avoided. Because if you can free a person from the
grooming stages, you're helping prevent the trauma of sexual abuse.
This is an
empowerment of families and the freedom to disclose whatever happens. There are different culture aspects around
the world that have to be factored in.
And we do promote these attitudes, which- this is a tall order we all
know and we're not getting it right all the time, but we have to have our
parameters very clear so people can be encouraged to move forward.
Q: Something that's been disturbing me for some
time, I hope you can help me understand.
The situations you've told us about bring a great deal of hope and it
would mean that we are finding a solution to a problem that has been great
concern to us all.
However on the
other hand we have information from civil society that on an ongoing basis they
are telling us that when a problem arose, or a complaint was filed, the
complaint wasn’t dealt with in terms of the priest involved, no coordination
with authorities. The individual
involved was allowed to flee go to another country.
I've actually
read specific stories about this, all prior to 2011. Between 2011 and now it would appear you're
providing a solution to the problem. On
three occasions you've given us some very small examples, or a few examples.
Perhaps there is an action that needs to be taken by the church in order to
address these problems.
What you need
to do now is- have some type of public policy and this has to deal with
everything and urgently. Otherwise there
are so many children out there, and they need to have closure in their
lives. Because they have suffered great
psychological trauma and won’t be able to move forward without closure.
We as you to
invest more efforts, further efforts, and to use your dissuasive power.
I think you
need to get down to business, do things, concrete things, because we're dealing
with specific human beings. They tell us
their pain and suffering and need answers ,
It's difficult for me to listen to so many things you're doing because in society I don't think we're facing these problems.
Q; Mr. C:
I’d like to clarify. With respect
to victims, you recently explained you want them to receive compensation and
there’s criminal responsibility. That's fine.
But this morning you told us that the obligation of the church is to
communicate the problem to the congregation and a trial is taking place
internally within the Holy See. In the
cases where there’s no trial, is there ever any reparation to the victim. Do the victims even know the trial has taken
place?
M: We are taking the questions all at once.
Q: You pointed
out the phenomenon of grooming. IN
education aimed at children, how do you actually present these phenomenon and
how do you assist children in helping themselves? Referring to grooming.
Q: One very specific question, you said it was
judicial in each country that would deal
with sexual abuse of clergy. But over
the years so many cases have come up.
How many prosecutions have gone through.
What percentage and what punitive action has been taken. Because it seems you hand it to local
system, how effective has that been?
M: I would like to remind you of our questions about
the data. We want you to provide the
data on all cases you've been involved in under canon law or in local
countries?
VATICAN
RESPONSE:
BISHOP: Follow-up
is left to local churches. So when CDF
authorizes a process, it gives instructions on the procedure, but follow-up is
left to local churches, because that is where the problem arises and where solution
has to be worked out. So we don't have
any information about statistics about what is the effect. The follow-up is left to the local
churches.
Question about
damages in canon law. There are two important
laws on the question of damages. There is
the general principle of personal liability canon 128, says every person is
obliged to make amends for any damages caused to another person, whether through
malice or negligence.
Then there is
a process within the canonical procedure, an action for damages, which the
victim can actually promote with a canonical trial against an offender.
More important
is to be able to advise victims of their rights and that is something we need
to work on. As also the important encouragement
we've received, which is I think music to our ears, of saying you're on the
right path. You need to be more aggressive
about getting this policy to the local churches to be applied on the local
level. That is I think very important.
M: Your answer said it would be best practice to
set up a data system, why not also gather information from all the local
churches? It's up to you, not interfering
with the state and will answer our question of what has happened, what have you
done. How many victims and have they got
compensation? All this data is possible to
collect.
Re compensation,
in quite a few states they have a kind of compensation scheme for victims for which
nobody is personally libel. Could you consider
setting up a compensation scheme because these persons are all employed by the
church, it's not independently of the church that they've done it, it's in the
name of the church so to speak.
ANOTHER QUESTION: RE a trial;
(TRANSCRIBER
HAS TO STOP HERE FOR 30 SECONDS for HER JOB& WILL COME BACK AND CONTINUE AS
SOON AS POSSIBLE.)
Q: -for the Holy
See, what does the size actually mean. What
more do we need in terms of guidance. A
letter establishing a duty to report? And
this policy of silencing of victims. There
are two principles that are being undermined, mainly transparency and
accountability. Unless we address these
and the silencing of victims, it will be extremely difficult to make progress
on the ground.
Another point I
want to raise is this committee as far as persons who have abused children, when
we engage with states parties, we say make sure these persons do not become teachers. Or collecting garbage, because they will have
access to our schools. So it shouldn't come
as a surprise at all if we are concerned that people in the clergy have this
track record and have access to children.
There is currently
a shortage of priests in the church. To what
extent will this focus on quantity sacrifice what this committee is interested in
which is quality?
BISHOP: To the last intervention, I think the points
are well made and well taken. I'm with
you when you say that all these nice words will be mean anything when we come
back for another report if there is not more transparency and accountability on
the local level.
This is something
that is a constant work in progress.
And I think that
when you say I understand as a rhetorical question, is quantity going to take
precedence over quality, and this concerns future priests. What candidates to accept and also who to maintain
in pastor care. My conviction is only
quality will ensure good quantity and not the other way around. Because this is
something that you are called for. Only
somebody who is a living example of high ideals can be spiritual leaders. So they are in the end connected.
MR. T: Short comment, I agree obviously with what Bishop
said, but it's not that the scarcity of vocation is going to change the requirements
for preparation. It's in the West that vocations
are scarce and it's in the West where the most obvious sexual abuse of children
has taken place. So we need to keep in
mind also this perspective.
Going back to
request of vice chair person about children being informed on their rights- the
convention has been translated into all official languages of the UN to make it
known for the children to understand it.
It's an effort to reach out to children and build up their personality.
The policy of
silence may have been policy in past, but in recent years encourage
transparency as release of recent documents testifies.
AS FAR AS the Holy
See is concerned, it's response has been quite strong in the last several years.
M: There have been examples of victims getting
compensation on condition of being silent, can you comment on that?
VATICAN: I
don't have all the statistics at this moment, but in United States for example have
been compensated as a result of judicial procedure, without imposing any condition. There might have been cases in the past of agreement
for compensation for silence, but I think the vast majority of the cases now is
public record.
M: Is this issue of transparency something that goes
out to all local churches?
VATICAN: THE official documents of the Holy See move
in this direction.
WE ARE READY
FOR A TEN-MINUTE BREAK
(I need to finish the TInker Bell interview.)AND THE END OF THE HEARING IS HERE:
*****
Thank you again
madam chairperson, I don't have many answers to give except small points. Regarding child soldiers…
M: Question from
Miss Winter:
Q:: I would like the second part of my question answered,
re the age of the protection of children from fifteen to eighteen.
V: I'm not able to answer you right away but we
will propose this change, yes.
M: (REPEATS SOME OF THE QUESTIONS)
(I AM ONLY
GOING TO TRANSCRIBE THE ANSWERS DEALING WITH PEDOPHILE PRIESTS)
Q: During the
break someone approached me about their particular case, now after the 2011
date we set as a benchmark
This person
told me about the priest who had raped this person was transferred to India.
I have doubts
as to what is happening, this change as of 2011. We need to adopt concrete visible
actions.
The wife to
appear to be a good wife, we need to
hear these testimonies from members of the church. My question needs to be answered here.
Regardless of
the level a priest has achieved in his career, if they've committed these kinds
of crimes, should they receive another court trial besides the church? Why does this state of affairs still
prevail? I'm not convinced you are
cooperating with civil courts.
Finally to
close this gap we refer to, I can attest to these matters, because of these
testimonies I've heard. I suggest there
be a meeting between the Holy See and these individuals.
Civil society
should be involved.
Prove there
has been a change of attitudes from the church.
M: Also the question of compensation and my question
about data that you have in your archives.
whether you are willing to give the data to us and others?
VATICAN: Well there is a whole list of new old questions.
I'll try to give some answers. Regarding
corporal punishment
(I'm going back to work on Tinker Bell, will check in ever 30 secs or so until they talk about pedophile priests. May miss something. So far the questioners are making all the points. )
(I'm going back to work on Tinker Bell, will check in ever 30 secs or so until they talk about pedophile priests. May miss something. So far the questioners are making all the points. )
Q: In many countries the church is
untouchable. We’d like to ask you to
demonstrate that you agree and support these cases transparency and the legal consequences,
not only apologizing for the past happenings.
A: I think that
the non negotiable principle for the child means no interest or any other question
should obstruct the functioning and legitimate sovereignty of domestic law in the
country, whoever is involved.
(THEY ARE
CONCENTRATING ON children born of priests and then on adoption, I'm only transcribing
the stuff about pedophile priests, so.. .
(Okay, I finished
the Tinker Bell transcript, can concentrate on this, now they are talking about
children with AIDS and all the great work the church has done.)
Q: MISS K:
come back to the question I raised in first part regarding child parent
relations.
(RESTING MY
FINGERS)
M: I think we've
come to the conclusion of this session, we'll have concluding remarks by Miss
V:
MISS V: Thank you.
I think we have had an extremely shall I say a good interactive discussion
which is what we were looking for. I understand
you don't have answers on all the issues but we certainly advocate that all the
issues raised by the committee are of vital importance.
So I think it's
very important that the meeting we have today bear some fruit, otherwise the discussions
we've had will be of no use. At the end
of the day I think it was you who said it is the children who matter. The convention is all about children, to make
life better for children. Our existence
as a committee
There are
practices that have continued for a very long time, and they haven't moved
along to make a difference for children, and that is what we're looking
for.
I know that if
you make a beginning, the time we've spent will eventually make life better for
children. So thank you very much.
MALE: I believe that everybody who was here today
has felt the same thing. We believe we're
seeing new steps being taken, we have great expectations what new steps will be
taken, a dialogue with civil society will take place.
This will
attest to this new era, this new dawn for the Holy See, with all the influence you
have, this moral power. That influence and
power can help you ensure that children will be protected.
As the hearing ends, I'm hearing Whitney Houston sing, "I believe that children our our future"
.
COVERAGE NEXT DAY in Mainstream Media
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